But it's not an excuse for the way he talked to the controller. He refuses to leave airspace even though he never had clearance to fly through it, and he refuses to take down a number because hes flying., Hopefully an investigation is done and this guy loses his license. Ah, Karen. They got a full 2/3 of their pilots certificated!! This isnt a slap on the wrist type of offense. Continuing into class Bravo airspace without a clearance and then flying right thru the active ILS approach to a major airport is a huge problem. Doxing is not right. If you are in trouble for pilot deviation, the results could be very bad. When told to leave it, he refused and was belligerent. Nobody gives a f*. He did not damage anybody. What's the big deal? Even the big airline pilots (American, Delta, etc.) I'm a commercial pilot and CFII. When Can I Apply For Student Pilot Certificate? A brasher warning is basically when you are given notice that you have made a mistake when you were piloting a plane. Not for nothing, but shes only got 2 guys in the area, coulda cleared him through. I can almost guarantee you that this clown had the certified letter from the local FSDO awaiting in his mailbox, still smoking by the time he arrived home. You don't get to tar the rest of us with his brush. @Francis Bagbey He endangered so many people. Assuming N1NR requested clearance, in standard aviation communications, there is a clear protocol. Harrison Ford is an accomplished pilot that made the same sort of mistake that many Commercial ATP pilots have made setting up for the wrong runway or taxiway etc. Not buying the sick daughter excuse. But you'd think that someone displaying this much attitude and disrespect for critical rules would have shown his true colors and been denied a license much earlier. 08:47PM EDT Montreal-Trudeau - YUL. Please inform me prior to conducting any service demanding fees.I would prefer the request filled electronically, by e-mail attachment if available or CD-ROM if not. This should help to give you a better understanding of pilot deviation and the risks that are associated with it. All I do is shake my head and smile. Bravo airspace, like Ben said, is the airspace around major airports in the country. If you do not, then you might face losing your certificate, which isnt what anybody wants. This pilot penatrated that airspace at what appears to have been approximately 4800. Yes humans make mistakes, and that is why aviation has the strictest protocols outside Oh my gosh! I've been given instructions that I don't agree with. 3h 18m. - claiming he got auth when he didn't The tower controller likely doesn't care, as he won't be handling it. Everything is on tape. He was the one that escalated the situation to where the ATC got flustered/put off by his response. I noticed a typo "pilot deviation" should be of course "pilot deviation". The pilot was asked to leave, but decides to stay. Go read the news HERE AND NOW and find out when we call the cops with the .50 BMGs to take out one guy going to the store because he looks "suspicious".*. He SHOULD lose his cert for And the incidents you mention are the exact reason for the existence of Bravo and Charlie airspace in the first place. I'll give you the number when you're ready to copy. With respect to my comment above (cant edit), delete the word email from the comment (next to last word). MuckRock users can file, duplicate, track, and share public records requests Good job on hitting a new high USA! But N1NR wants clearance nonetheless and is refusing to leave. Information Mike current at Henderson, they're landing 35"N731NR: [inaudible]. My reliable bet is that sometime between approach switching the aircraft to tower and the time the phone number is read, the pilot gave the tower controller a sob story. To cross LAS B airspace to get to HND is To cross LAS B airspace to get to HND is beyond my ability to grasp. Go get him FAA!!! There's no stick up anyone's ass here just concerned people who want to ensure the people who trust us to get them to point B are safe. Possible Pilot Deviation Imagine you're the PIC, departing from Runway 27L. The requirements for us to enter Bravo airspace are spelled out with extreme clarity in the FARs; this one dickhead decided to ignore those requirements. Cut off a commercial airline at the beginning of his short final resulting in a missed approach and go round for him. The Cessna P210N stall speed is 67 knots. Anarchists on the ground, anarchists in the air. Thats the whole point of talking to you.ATC: You have to have a Bravo clearance. There was a similar incident once about 10 years ago in New York where the kid would keep declaring and undeclaring an emergency. Controllers do not make up things to pick on pilots. The Cessna P210N stall speed is 67 knots. Doing so erodes hand flying skills which is evident in the last phase of his flight. This is why the notion of sport and private pilot licenses are a bunch of BS. Get the stick out of your asses. Pilot deviation can leave passengers, crew, and people on the ground in danger. P.S. However, unless you are in a Class A airspace, a pilot is allowed to cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When you have 2 F-16s or 2 F-15s escorting you that should bring sense into your head faster than having the nerve to argue. from 7110.65 Reply IctrlPlanes Additional comment actions It was after the check ride was over that it was actually issued. The main reason is safety to clear an area around the airport for takeoffs and landings. Or . Unfortunately, that's not what happened. Other pilots chimed in calling him for what he was. If an ATC clearance has been obtained, there is no pilot that is allowed to deviate from the given clearance unless an amended clearance has been obtained, there is an emergency, or the deviation is in response to an air traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. Hundreds could have died. This guy make me sick!!! I'm a Retired LAS Controller. airworthiness of an aircraft or the current aircraft configuration. There is zero excuse for wasting ATC's time in a Class B in this age of airliners everywhere. In fact, I encourage that. Wrong. Always IFR but I still remember feeling like a pain in the ass for asking for VFR service from a controller having a bad day. 552. I know what he did was wrong but I understand his frustration. The few concerns about behavior affected by incipient tumor or hypoxia bring back memories. We all know the pilot was wrong but. maybe he's tired of the attitude of that particular class bravo. First of all, I've never gotten one, and don't plan to get one. The F-15 and F-16 have to go over twice that. This was a deliberate and willful violation of regulations. Yes humans make mistakes, and that is why aviation has the strictest protocols outside the nuclear industry. Thank you for your pointing out you're anti-USA and somehow a pilot incursion into Class Bravo airspace has to do with "anti-mask BS". He should AT LEAST be suspended, and frankly, given his behavior, I have no issue with his losing it. 3 This pilot is more than likely going to have to do recurrent training probably 10 to 15 hrs before privalages can be restored. Turns out he's a slumlord, "supplement" pill pusher, and owns a "wealth generation" company. Civil aviation authorities should raise pilot standards. I know this Controller and she is good at her job. Let the appropriate agency (the FAA) handle this. . Researching this pilot's flight with FlightAware and Flightradar24 a much clearer picture emerges. Also in this case, N1NR is crossing directly into the path of other aircraft's landing approach (2 Southwest airplanes at that moment were landing). About 45 minutes after the student left my phone rings Reminds me of center frequencies ignoring calls from VFR aircraft. "N731NR (again, whining): "I requested Bravo clearance about 15 miles ago. Anyone flying under VFR (Visual . We cannot possibly explain reasoning behind every denial of service at the time it happens. The Original Donna: Class Bravo & Charlie airspace requires certain verbal permission to fly in/out/ and through it, but you have basic lack of understanding when it comes to the airspace system I fear. Either that or he's going to get some very long vectors around special use airspace. Either way, whether medical or psychological, the solution is the same - he shouldnt have a license. That being said, its not just a comfort level thing or willingness issue - its often a safety Im an air traffic controller in a class B airspace (one of the 8 US airports busier than LAS) and I have to admit that Im occasionally underwhelmed by the services that my coworkers are willing to provide; how unenthusiastic they can be about working a little harder to allow a VFR aircraft to enter the airspace. She kept phoning her father, a MD in LA and complaining about her mistreatment and threatening everybody with lawsuits. So to appease the pilot and keep him from rattling off more sob story on frequency, he just smiles and waves. Last thing I want flying over a populated area is some guy who thinks he owns the airspace, and willing to butt heads over it. Maybe "Karen" is the fictitious name the ignorant/uncaring pilot in this story gave himself!? From available ATC communications, it appears this particular pilot either forgot to make the request, or thought he made the request to get permission. What are the Advantages of Using VOR Systems for Navigation? "Abraham Lincoln, letter to H.L. 1) Probably not hypoxia. incorporated its pilot deviation notification procedures into the Facility Operation and Administration publication in 1986. ). As we have previously mentioned, the penalties for pilot deviation can be very severe, and the action itself can often be deadly. 731NR | Pilots of America Home Forums Controlled Airspace Flight Following 731NR Discussion in ' Flight Following ' started by WWFeldman, Oct 29, 2020 . But generally, we want what is best (safest as well as most enjoyable) for the users. We dont delight in getting them in trouble. If the worst were to happen, people could lose their lives due to pilot deviation, which is not something that anyone wants to have on their conscience. The ONLY reason aviation is the safest form of transportation is precisely because everything is taken so seriously. Any request must be met with an instruction and then a confirmation. This brasher warning is intended to provide the involved flight crew with the opportunity to make note of the incident that has taken place and gather their thoughts before it is discussed. Keep up the anti-mask bs. The call taker should stick to the facts and avoid all emotionality, etc. E I'm not so sure she would know how to "buy a clue"!? saturn in ardra nakshatra pada 2 n731nr pilot deviation. 2020-007191WS Anonymous (Laing) Invoice.pdf, 2020-007191WS Anonymous (Laing) PDPNR.pdf, Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Act Request #2020-007191. I live in Las Vegas. As well as this, you might want to consider making a call to an aviation attorney before you call the number that you have been provided with. She didn't offer a heading or instruction to resolve the issue. This leads the pilot to tell ATC to clear him. Honestly I'm not sure why. Typically, as tower, I don't care about the details, I've got stuff to do. The other pilot had it right - he's a real a*&^. Maybe follow-up later with a phone call to make sure they knew it was entirely unintentional, you immediately corrected the error, and that safety is paramount. > Why am I not surprised this happened in Vegas, where theyre apparently allergic to rules. U.S. Department of Transportation Federal Aviation Administration 800 Independence Avenue, SW Washington, DC 20591 1-866-TELL-FAA (1-866-835-5322) What almost everyone here is saying is correct (save for the C who ragged on GA pilots - the kind that most ATPS once were in order to get to where they are today- B!). Oh my gosh! It would be one thing if he "unintentionally" violated the Class B airspace (how exactly do you do that in this day and age?). Sometimes ATC attitude causes the problems. - refusing to take down a number because "busy flying" "N731NR (still whining): "Then clear me through. She didn't take the high road when he became argumentative. Everything is on tape. entering airspace without authorization). You have successfully joined our subscriber list. I remember about 20 years ago when my grandfather and I flew up to Vegas to SEMA and we flew outside class bravo and he explicitly explained that we dont get near that ring until ATC says clear to enter. It will get figured out. The duration of aircraft registration certificates has been extended up to 7 years. Most aircraft are owned by a business, a corporation, a leasing company, or someone who rents their aircraft out. Laws don't matter anymore. Uncharacteristic behavior is often one of the first indicators of an underlying problem. There are riots. I'm a Retired LAS Controller. Please provide a copy of all records previously provided under FOIA request: 2020-007074WS . Visit a tracon JUST ONCE. See more about our ethics policies here. As soon as I heard this when she said not cleared I remember him saying thats a $5,000 fine. ATC Audio: Negligent Pilot Argues With Air Traffic Controller, I love listening to air traffic control audio, Not Good: Boom Overture Left Without Engines, Factorydesigns Innovative New Narrow Body Business Class Seat, Please view our advertising policy page for additional details about our partners. (at least formally) "LAS: "Nobody clears you through the Bravo but me. Blatantly ignoring ATC is criminally gross negligence. Having been a pilot for over 50 years let me assure you this pilot will receive more than a you shouldnt do that anymore. It's not just the danger of him putting his plane where he shouldn't have been--there is the addition of the energy spent dealing with him (multiple radio calls taking time away from other tasks, plus building frustration--controllers are human too, and this stuff can really foul your day). And in any case, if the ATC says you need to get out of the airspace, you do it. If N1NR had requested clearance, ATC would have responded with clearance or denial and N1NR would have to confirm what was said. Pilot deviation is a serious incident, and there can be lots of different outcomes depending on the exact situation. It will get figured out. Or, the guy may be a massive jerk. I was interested in being a Pilot but it shocks me how awful other pilots can be, they even revert to ganging up or saying a terrible thing because of a mistake another pilot made as if they "the great one" has never made a mistake in their life. People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and dont get their license suspended. Maybe, just maybe this controller was playing her Bravo authority a little too far? He let his situational awareness slip, not a good thing. Thanks. The recording indicates a few things going on: sounded like a rough flight, pilot's kid threw up, perhaps he had his hands full. Then you are free to call the tower on the landline when you land and find out why you were denied clearance or complain about poor services. LAS: "You have to have a Bravo clearance. He did request a clearance. Just to offer a slightly different perspective on all of this, I am wondering if there's a medical issue here, in which some sympathy might be warranted. That being said, its not just a comfort level thing or willingness issue - its often a safety judgement. She was released later on. The belligerent behavior of the pilot with the controller and the sound of his voice makes me wonder if this might have been suffering from mild hypoxia. So long "Karen". This guy intentionally violated it, then took up ATC's time fighting about it. Thank you.Respectfully,Geneva LaingManagement and Program Analyst, Management & Administrative Support Team, AJV-W640, Northwest Mountain Regional OfficeATO Western Service CenterResource Management Group2200 S. 216th St., 3rd Floor, 3N-458Des Moines, WA 98198Office: 206-231-3337Geneva.Laing@faa.gov, [Your new Mission Support Services Logo! I thought I was cleared, I have an ill 6 year old on board. This will help to ensure that you are fully prepared for whatever happens next. (Apologies if external links aren't allowed.). You have to request Bravo clearance.Pilot: I requested Bravo clearance about 15 miles ago.ATC: Nobody cleared you through the Bravo but me.Pilot: Then clear me through.ATC: No!Pilot: Yes!. WWFeldman Pre-takeoff checklist Joined: Nov 11, 2019 Messages: 107 Display name: WWFeldman I'm sure we all remember our favorite bravo buster. Without that you cannot enter class B airspace. In the next couple of weeks this is what he can expect: 1 Phone call with FAA to get pilots side of the story. I dont see any defense to his behavior. I look forward to receiving your response to this request within 20 business days, as the statute requires. The company is owned by Jeff Wachner, a real estate agent in Southern California. I'll give you the number when you're ready to copy." . N1NR greeted LAS with standard communication and LAS responded with standard information that N1NR would need for their arrival at Henderson airport. It is quite apparent that the pilot is well versed in being an a**hole. The pilot never requested clearance into the class BRAVO airspace. he just kept right on going disregarding the safety of hundreds of people on the SWA planes. Ill give you the number when youre ready to copy.Pilot: Im not ready to copy. Your participation in helping us identify both our strong and weak points will help us improve our service(s) to all our stakeholders. I'm without reason or belief to know why you lack the ability to be surprised. In this case, N1NR is not landing at Las Vegas but at a different airport and is just passing through the area. Alan BillingsFOIA Business AnalystFederal Aviation Administration AFN-400(O) 202-267-6352alan.billings@faa.gov, Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Act Request: FAA records for N731NR. Answer (1 of 8): Forgive me, but I have a tendency to twist ambiguous questions like this. * See for example https://youtu.be/mUSUXnr4dSo, Subject: HQ: Request 2020-007191 under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. It is really important to understand how severe the consequences can be. Is there any way you can vector me through? Is spoiled B short for "Spoiled Bravo Airspace" or "Spoiled Brat" or "Spoiled B." :). Don't argue with these pros. If you are aware that you have made a mistake, and have filled out the necessary reports, then it will be less likely that you will face serious consequences. You'd be surprised how many Pilots act like they are the only plane an ATC is working even tho she is nonstop talking sequencing Arrivals to one of the top 5 busiest airports in the USA!!! The best way to ensure that you do not get in any trouble is to stay vigilant, follow the rules, and file a report if you know that an error has occurred on your behalf. Keep up the anti-mask bs. I live in Las Vegas. Whether BR was cleared or not he was tracked and being separated. (https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N731NR). This guy should be banned from flying period! 07-Oct-2022. These guys & women keep 10-20 balls in the air constantly..you think you can do better?? But if it was just a misjudgment, and we all make those from time to time, the appropriate response would be to simply apologize to the Controller, then get out. Certainly, the other person on frequency broke the rules by transmitting directly to the pilot, but that was defensible and measured: the pilot had severely degraded situational awareness that was imperiling the safe operation of his aircraft. But I'd recommend against posting it, even if that person turns out to be the idiot in question. Opinions expressed here are the authors alone, and have not been reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by any of these entities. I noticed the same aircraft had an incident last year with a gear-up landing in St. Louis. Pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act, I hereby request the following records: An electronic copy of:- any accident, investigation, pilot deviation reports, legal enforcement actions (incl suspensions, revocations and/or monetary penalties) or FSDO records (including statements or phone recordings from Las Vegas or Henderson Tower ATC regarding a possible pivot deviation on June 20, 2020 where N731NR may have entered Bravo airspace without clearance*)- from 2018-Nov-5 to present,- of owner WIFE APPROVED LLC, registration N731NR, or Jeff Wachner. Neil Wilsonthe CFIIsays "maybe the controller was playing her class BRAVO authority a little too far".. You should not be a CFII with that kind of attitude. The Federal Aviation Administration publishes quarterly a compilation of enforcement actions against regulated aviation entities that are closed with either a civil penalty or issuance of a certificate suspension or revocation. I know this Controller and she is good at her job. Then landed on the beach. NASTY ARGUMENT between Cessna Pilot and Vegas ATC! It's clear the supe was not impressed by how the controller handled the situation either. CTO (Control Tower Operator) with AS Degree in ATC. The pilot was asked to leave, but decides to stay. Reminds me of center frequencies ignoring calls from VFR aircraft. Did anyone ever find out what happened to this pilot? Most helpful comments ( as chosen by the OMAAT community ). Sometimes its not possible to accommodate requests, either because of airport or supervisory/FAA edicts or because of systemic procedures or because of current workload. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. About 45 minutes after the student left my phone rings Caller - this is xx. @Wingslover said, "If youre having medical issues or youre feeling unwell youre not supposed to be in command of an aircraft.". I was interested in being a Pilot but it shocks me how awful other pilots can be, they even revert to ganging up or saying a terrible thing because of a mistake another pilot made as if they "the great one" has never made a mistake in their life. Commercial Pilot 24 votes, 30 comments. A copy of documents responsive to the request. While we do try to list all the best miles and points deals, the site does not include all card companies or credit card offers available in the marketplace. 2 Letter from FAA notifying an investigation is underway, privileges may be suspended or curtailed until investigation is over. He flew right across the ILS approach glideslope to LAS 26 after he was told to vacate Bravo airspace recklessly endangering multiple lives. Your feedback is important in helping us keep our community safe. Yeah, he was a jerk, but she is paid to problem solve, and she didn't offer him any useful solutions other than to just leave. I've been given instructions that I don't agree with. To all the negative comments we did not hear previous communication. > Nobody gives a f*. 1NR, exit the Bravo immediately.Pilot: Ive been talking to you the whole time. This is about aviation. ATC: "N1NR, possible pilot deviation, advise to contact Las Vegas approach. Clearly not the kind of temperament needed to be a pilot. Always IFR but I still We all know the pilot was wrong but. maybe he's tired of the attitude of that particular class bravo. Recognizing the mistakes, learning from them, and apologizing makes for more experienced PICs, and thus safer airspace. The overall outcome will depend on the situation in question and the consequences of the incident. This guy is a real threat to himself and others. Instructions on distribution of Essentially, you have the right to be aware that you are in trouble after making a mistake. For the bloviating piehole who made a comment about the American pilot who required 31L, I was the PIC and I declared an emergency three times because there was one. Share sensitive information only on official, secure websites. However he failed to descend below the inner ring, that ring starts at 4500 ft MSL and goes up to 10000 ft MSL. Or the one over Cerritos in 1986? Bravo airspace, like Ben said, is the airspace around major airports in the country. I suspect the way this will be (or has been) settled is that both the controller and the pilot will be counseled respectively on what they could have done to prevent the situation. He risked lives at the time of this incident, and in the future if pilots aren't seriously punished for this kind of behavior. Whats with the last controller sounding like he is appeasing this dude, instead of trusting the previous controller. "Other pilot: "You're an ass$&#!". If you are on an IFR flight and told to maintain a certain altitude, deviating from that altitude beyond tolerances set by the regs qualifies as pilot deviation. Now he may have requested clearance BUT requesting clearance and being granted clearance are two different things. This letter acknowledges receipt of your FOIA request dated May 27, 2020, regarding any accident, investigation, pilot deviation reports, legal enforcement actions, or FSDO records, regarding a possible pivot deviation on June 20, 2020 where N731NR may have entered Bravo airspace without clearance. Get the stick out of your asses. How hard would it be to just clear him through? The FAA should (and probably will) commence an emergency revocation of the pilot's certificate. The begged question is false. Either that, or "Karen" is the "wife" this aircraft is registered to in "Wife Approved LLC". LOL this is probably the same guy that registered the aircraft to WIFE APPROVED LLC. Everybody said most of everything I would want to say. N731NR: "Vegas Approach, Centurion 731NR with you descending through 5700'"LAS: "1NR, Las Vegas Approach, Las Vegas altimeter, 29.88. Unfortunately we are unable to move forward with your request until we have a name. She is going to give him the number when he's ready. You should be ashamed. If this pilot had any sense he would have self reported because his flight recording through the area shows something different than what he thought. ATC is trying to direct traffic and Mr Wachner regardless of a possible misunderstanding says to hell with you I'm doing what I want. If you should have any trouble viewing this email or the attachment, please notify us immediately. Car accidents because of human error are just as fatal only to less people. Avoiding Pilot Deviations.pdf (1016.81 KB) Pilot deviations can occur in several different ways. When approach calls tower about a deviation, they may or may not give details. He responds he requested clearance previously. Ive dealt the entering class B many times. Id. And he had to know that ATC comms are recorded. Either that, or "Karen" is the "wife" this aircraft is registered to in "Wife Approved LLC". Subject: FOIA 2020-007191WP DUE: 8/6/2020, 411A Highland AvenueSomerville, MA 02144-2516, Subject: Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) Request 2020-007191WP. Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by WWFeldman, Oct 29, 2020. That's the whole point of talking to you.". Plus..help us if weather becomes a problem, as it did yesterday..with vectors around threatening weather. I too am amazed at the next tower's apology. The owner of that plane holds a Commercial Pilot Certificate. The few concerns about behavior affected by incipient tumor or hypoxia bring back memories. Sincerely,Annjanette CumminsNational FOIA Coordinator for ANM, AAL & AWP RegionsFOIA Program Management Branch, AFN-400(206) 231-2034[AFN3_SignatureImage_2a]. I know the FAA is trying to do the whole kinder gentler thing but there is a time to make an example. > Good job on hitting a new high USA! We will also go into the consequences that could occur if you were to get into trouble for this. My reliable bet is that sometime between approach switching the aircraft to tower and the time the phone number is read, the pilot gave the tower controller a sob story. All I can say is ATC should be paid for saving people's lives!!!!! Due to the multiple violations including multiple times refusing to obey an ATC order, I am hoping the pilot's license is suspended at a minimum. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact the coordinator(s) found in the letter. Should you wish to inquire as to the status of your request, please contact the assigned FOIA Coordinator. Good for the controller for remaining reasonable. For specific information, you may request a copy of . Or . He had to pass my father's exam before IP could sign off on him.